Saturday, July 12, 2008

It's sad to see creativity misused.

     Don't get me wrong. Ray Comfort is creative. Well, either that or he has someone behind the scenes that provides creativity. The trait is not shared by his followers who can do little more than say "Great post, Ray!!!!!!!!" I would love to be able to come up with imaginitive analogies like he uses. But it is sad to watch him use this creativity to promote a lie. I am thouroughly convinced that he knows it's a lie. (His followers may be deceived.)
     We have far too little creativity in this world. I have heard that Einstein thought that imagination was more important than knowledge. I'm not sure I would agree with that. But it is important; and it is certainly scarcer than knowledge. I want to see what little creativity we have used to help mankind, not thrust it back into another Dark Ages.


The Ranting Student said...


Milo said...

You do come up with imaginitive analogies, however yours make sense and therefore are not understood by Ray's followers.

get_education said...

I doubt Ray is imaginative. But no arguing is necessary.

The reason they did not think that you and me are the same is because they already think I am Clos resuscitated. (By the third day?)

They do not need us to have the same writing style. I do not write like Clos whatsoever.


Pvblivs said...

     I considered that. It would not have surprised me if they thought we were all the same person.

get_education said...

You got me there! Of course they could think we are all the same "in three persons." That is not very hard for them to think. :-)

KiwiInOz said...

"We're all individuals"

"I'm not"

dede said...

come on fellow humans, i'm gonna take a chance here to voice my opinion.

in defense of your comment regarding ray's blog,you say we just haven't the intelligence because we all rally around ray's blog and give him verbal kudos and rhetorical pats on the back for his creative threads. but, what you accuse the Christians of doing, aren't you all in sense doing the same thing on your blog sites? aren't you all don't you all like-minded people like patting each other on the backs too?

btw, i may not have the high IQ that u all have and just because i lack less than higher intellengence, i gain in other attributes.
if i had time (not that your would read them), i would list my giftings so you all would or could appreciate my life. i suppose the same would go with the rest of us "troll" Christians.

i should be posting this on f.d's blog, but what the heck...i hate that so called deceitful people like todd bently is bent on making money and physically hurting is nauseating.

i'm not foreign to the "a" sites ...just ask clos.

i gotta go & cook dinner. sorry but my passion got the best of me today.

KiwiInOz said...

dede, you sound like a pretty decent human being, and someone I would quite happily have a chat with or engage in a deeper more rigorous discussion (without any regard to our IQ, EQ, or p's and q's).

The bugbear that many of us have is that Ray could use a random word generator and add a bible verse at the end, and people like Terry or Michelle (to name a few) would be falling over themselves to say how wonderful the utterance from ray was. Now this may purely be a counter-reaction to the fact that many of us call Ray out when he is patently and demonstrably wrong (which is unfortunately so much of the time).

Now, we, like the disciple Thomas is said to have, want physical and verifiable evidence for the various claims that Ray makes. Ray does not do that, and draws his evidence from a source (the bible) which we find to be all to human in its flaws and frailties to be evidence of the existence of an invisible, omnipotent, omniscient entity.

I hope that you had a pleasant dinner - I'll be off to have my lunch in half an hour.

get_education said...


I am really sorry to give you such a bad impression. The problem we see, is not just the like-mindedness. But that truly Ray can say anything and there will be lots of "great post Ray" sprouting immediately, even to the most bizarre of his posts. Even if it is impossible to make sense of them.

That was why I wrote that "the first to say ... goes out of my list of probably intelligent christian." Just testing the theory on that most aberrant post. And lo and behold, the words appeared.

We do not just pat each other in the back. have you seen me saying "great post" to anything pvblivs says? I wold probably do that with most of Steven J's ones, he is so knowledgeable and manages not to use a single insult in them. Still, I only say something when there is something of merit, not otherwise. Even if I make a mistake I just accept it. Give me an instance when Ray does that. Take the dinosaur thing as an instance.

In summary, yes, we might be biased to cheer our like-minded people, but we do not do it without thinking first if there is anything to cheer about. I know I don't.


get_education said...


I doubt you are less intelligent than me. It could be quite the opposite. The problem is not one of intelligence, but of being prepared to be critical.


dede said...

kiwiinoz said,

Now, we, like the disciple Thomas is said to have, want physical and verifiable evidence for the various claims that Ray makes.

i sort of understand your "bugbear" with ray, terry, michelle etcetera but if you wouldn't mind, i'd like to comment on the above.

because i have saturated myself with the Bible, i couldn't help but want to place a comment regarding your mention of thomas,the disciple.

ok, like you, thomas wanted physical and verifiable evidence that Jesus had risen and rose again. OK, i can understand that.

so after thomas acknowledges Jesus and states..."my Lord and my God", Jesus tells doubting thomas "because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

can you see that it's OK to doubt and seek answers yet Jesus is confirming and affirming his doubt and states, "thomas because you have seen me, you have believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed".

kiwiinoz, you and many others waste too much time in the quest to fix ray. stop looking at mere man for answers and find your own. i did. mere man will most likely disappoint me in the areas of my needs. even when i try to look to those closest to me to satify my "life questions" many times they fall short.

see kiwiinoz, at the end of that verse, Jesus has promised...BLESSED are can stop temporarily right there and ponder what He's trying to tell you.

i'll take the blessed anyday.

sorry i don't mean to offend. just sharing my heart and my mind.

dede said...


i also wanted to respond to your comment.

but, like i told kiwiinoz in the previous comment, you are wasting your valuable time trying to "fix" ray. although i do understand that if something is said,we,passionate people that we are, are going to comment. that's OK.

but, really g.e., it seems to have gotten so bad that on clos' blog, he has created some sort of ray tracters club and
has all involved running after a belief you don't even have. (i mean the belief in God)

oh and the reason that the "C's" think that you and clos are one, be it they have not taken the time to rhetorically get to know you. i admit to doing this with clos and another blogger (forgive me, i'm having a dementia moment on the bloggers name).

anywho, i am just suggesting that maybe you can go inand read ray's blog, make a comment or two,and
then go and do something great for mankind. (not that your aren't).


get_education said...


Thanks for taking the time to answer me.

Just for your clarification, it is not the belief in God that bothers us, it is more the selling of lies. Ray lies to you about things he does not understand, also n a way that he knows you will enjoy, because he mocks what you already think is foolish. So, you do not see the lies, nor the trickery, because you have come to trust him. This is what infuriates me. But have to admit. In all this time it just seems like none of you will believe us that he lies to you wholeheartedly. He does.

As I said to Rebecca (she said the WOTM on evolution was brilliant, and if you saw that video on evolution by comfort and kirk you will understand what I mean):

How could the WOTM about Evolution be brilliant? You call telling lies and doing ridiculous acts of dishonesty brilliant? What would you think of a video against God where I would go outside and ask unaware teens whether they have proof that God exists? Then I get them into some fallacious absolutist test where they would have to conclude that there is no God. Would that be "Brilliant"? Wouldn't you wonder why did I not interview Ray (for instance), or someone alike? Someone who has supposedly thought about it, rather than any random teen at the street?

Then, suppose I also go and make false statements about the "theory of God's existence"? Let us say I state that to prove the God of the Bible it is necessary to examine all of the printed copies of the Bible, no matter which version. The I say, according to the Christians, the Bible is inerrant. This means we should not find a single bit of a typo in them, not a single copy of it with misprint, nor anything alike, because it is the work of God, and thus every copy has to be pristine and perfect. Then I show you a few copies, taken from some place where Bibles have to be old, odd printed, and tattered by time and use, then I claim, you see, all Bibles are like this! Would that be "Brilliant"?

Then I proceed and go searching for someone with mental problems, and take him/her for dinner, and I show that he/she has no manners, and spills everything, or whatever, then claim, well, he/she should be perfectly well behaved, this is what you should expect since the creationists would want you to believe that we were created to the image of God. Would that be "Brilliant"?

I could continue, but seriously, would you call such a thing brilliant, or preposterous bunch of lies, full of treacherous tactics, and misrepresentations?

So, maybe I should not care about it, maybe I should just leave you alone with Ray and his lies, but spreading lies to make a huge amount of money would not be the act of a true christian, would it?


get_education said...

Hum, even if the amounts of money were not that huge ... (I always get that excuse, it is not so much money ... I wonder why people cannot focus on the real problem, the spreading of lies, and the abuse Ray makes of your confidence.)


KiwiInOz said...

Hi dede,

Thanks for your response and, no, I am not offended by what you say.

First things first. I have been a Christian (of the Baptist kind) in the past (although Ray would argue that I was a false convert). I know my bible. I know the claims of Christianity (and I once accepted them wholeheartedly). But, I am no longer convinced by the truth or moral claims of Christianity nor any other religion.

I do think that it is important that people have a philosophy that guides them - and this may be as simple as following the morals and ethics imparted by one's parents, as comforting/discomforting as Christianity, as zen as an eastern religion, or as bleak as nihilism. I, personally, do not need a god or a belief in a god to give me my life's philosophy, or to give my life meaning. I give my life meaning by the things that I do or don't do.

Please don't believe the claims of some Christians that we atheists lack meaning in our lives or are somehow sad and bitter because we don't believe in a god. Like anyone, Christians included, we are a diverse bunch of humans and have all of the emotions and frailties that is humanity.

Anyway, I alluded to Thomas because I knew that it would have resonance with you. While preferring to see tangible evidence before accepting a truth claim is much older then Christianity or Judaism, I wanted you to appreciate that this also has a biblical pedigree.

But before you ask me (and many others) to consider Jesus' message, please appreciate that I (and many of we) have previously done so, and found the whole biblical/Christian/belief in supernatural message to be fundamentally flawed.

There is no need to believe in a god to accept that do unto others is an ethical stance that will help to ensure harmony amongst humanity.

Here endeth the lesson. :-) I've just started work and need to get on.


KiwiInOz said...

PS dede. We don't think that we can fix Ray. We just hope that readers will think for themselves, consider the evidence, do further research, and reject the lies (yes they are lies) that Ray preaches about science, the world and the universe, in order to further his agenda. Lying for Jesus even makes us atheists uncomfortable.

Truth can stand debate, robust discussion, and challenge.

dede said...

g.e. states...
it is more the selling of lies. Ray lies to you about things he does not understand, also n a way that he knows you will enjoy, because he mocks what you already think is foolish. So, you do not see the lies, nor the trickery, because you have come to trust him. This is what infuriates me. But have to admit. In all this time it just seems like none of you will believe us that he lies to you wholeheartedly.

i said...
OK, i agree that ray poke's fun toward atheistic viewpoints that he might not have a full understanding of. OK, you told me why and i understand that if the tables were turned your misrepresentation of the Bible would be frustrating to me to say the least, but again so what? g.e. you know better that we just don't have control over what other people say and do. i.e, how in the world can i control the deceit and lies of todd bentley, benny hinn, the christion channel-tbn, the media, the politicians etcetera?

you know that this world is coming to a very weird place. just the other day on the net, i pulled off an artical by ap news titled, "ap, tv organizations pull questioned video". the ap press & video services had pulled a video allegedly taken of a tornado in nebraska. this storm chaser was paid $295 bucks for footage that really didn't happen there in nebraska...this deceiver stole a video taken 4yrs previous, flipped it and called it his own. see, this stuff is going on and my gut feeling will increase in the future.

but back to my point, i have a fundamental responsibility, as a follower of Christ, to share my faith. and i'm mature enough to understand that Jesus didn't say follow ray, He said follow me. in other words, i have to be discerning in this day and age as to what is right and chuck the rest.

look, before i go on with the yada, yada, yada, can you share with me one or two specifics that bothers you the most where ray has lied and i promise to give myself the time to look into it.

again if i can stress, yes i read ray's blogs but i read them with a grain of salt as i do most things. but, you might admit that he has a good sense of humor.

you said...
How could the WOTM about Evolution be brilliant?

who said it was brilliant? all i viewed was the poking fun but it didn't really give me much on the explaination of the theory of evolution.

I wonder why people cannot focus on the real problem, the spreading of lies, and the abuse Ray makes of your confidence.)

i said...
i won't allow that in my life again. i have been down that road giving my money away to the "prosperity" preachers. then i personally checked it out for myself. i have grown from that experience but because of my poor judgement(s), i still remain a Christian and i will not throw out the baby (Christianity) with the bath water(world's deceptions).

i gotta tell a joke to lighten things up.

let me end by my lame attempts at making you smile. here goes...

how do you know there's an elephant under your bed? --your nose is touching the ceiling. (hehe)

until next time,

KiwiInOz said...

dede, re your comments to g.e. You have my respect for a) sticking to your principles, and b) for being prepared to challenge, think, and potentially change your mind (e.g. prosperity gospel) on the basis of the conclusions you come up with.

Oh, and I torment my kids with jokes like that one about the elephant, just for the fun of watching them groan and then begrudgingly laugh.

get_education said...


Thanks again. Most specifically, thanks for paying attention.

I had been given the "I follow Jesus" before, but that never explains the "great post Ray" coming every single time.

Anyway, you have several specifics about his lying. The evolution video is pure treachery, yet, Rebecca said the video was brilliant, so did someone else. but it was this video that got me "in fire." But then it was all that crap about atheists been God-haters (nonsense, you cannot hate something that you do not believe in), or that we become such because we love our sin. I know I my fun (reading, learning, discovering) is considered boring even by my christian friends, who do not see any of my boring fun as "sin." That got me into going all the way to tell you my reasons not to believe in God. But check a bit and you will see that at the beginning you could not even truly tell if I was an atheist or not. I just wanted the science straight, but then the prejudices and all of that got me going deeper.

So, lies, well, everything he says about evolution is a lie, like "there should be thousands of transitional fossils" followed by "there are none" (there are lots); or his ignorance of pseudo-genes (truly non-functional genes shared among humans and other apes, but functional in other species, like the gene that allows for the synthesis of vitamin C, why would we share a non-functional gene with chimps. Same position and all).

Again, you can keep your religion. Just do not remain ignorant of who ray really is. A willful liar. I am wiling to believe he does it because he thinks this is the right thing to do, but he is still a liar for Jesus.

Maybe it would be better if you see the video about intelligent design and evolution by Ken Miller:

He is a christian who understands evolution. His words are just beautiful, I almost converted to Christianity (not really, but it is truly poetic), just read:

Then you can compare with the irrational crap stated by P Johnson. All of it is available at:

Now, the main thing is that creationism is religion, NOT science. This is another reason we are so opposed to the likes of Ray, because they want to religion where it does not belong.

Thanks for the smile, I think Ken Miller's words at the pbs web page will make you smile too! Start there please. If you do not want to watch anything else, just start there. You will not regret it.



get_education said...


I will not be blogging for a little while, I am doing something great for mankind (or so I think) :-)