Friday, November 14, 2008

"9 Then he [Herod] questioned with him [Jesus] in many words; but he answered him nothing."

     The above quote is a cop-out. If it is historically accurate, it suggests that Jesus was not who he pretended to be. If not, it was probably added as a cop-out. It makes for a standard excuse for someone trying to evade people calling his bluff. I have to say that anyone who pulls that stunt (evading challenges with that quote) automatically loses any credibility he may have had.


Dani' El said...

Christ was fulfilling prophecy when he refused to answer to Herod, or perform miracles at his command.

Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Pvblivs said...


     I hope you realize that reads as something the author says had already happened (and as a legend at that) not as a prophecy. It also simply doesn't fit. The original story (in Isaiah) is one of not protesting mistreatment. The story in Luke is one of defiantly refusing to respond. So one story is one of complete submission and the other of defiant non-response. If these stories had appeared in some other religious text, you would regard them as unrelated.

Dani' El said...

A lot of prophecy speaks in the present or past tense like that.

And the "Lamb to the slaughter?"
is the lamb of God to the cross.

Herod had the power to free Jesus but he did not. He actually wanted him dead.

Luk 23:9 Then he questioned with him in many words; but he answered him nothing.
Luk 23:10 And the chief priests and scribes stood and vehemently accused him.
Luk 23:11 And Herod with his men of war set him at nought, and mocked him, and arrayed him in a gorgeous robe, and sent him again to Pilate.

BTW, the Rabbis always held in the traditions etc that Isaiah 53 was a prophecy of the Messiah. Until after the cross as it pointed to Jesus.

Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Pvblivs said...

     "BTW, the Rabbis always held in the traditions etc that Isaiah 53 was a prophecy of the Messiah. Until after the cross as it pointed to Jesus."
     Anyplace I can verify that? I had always heard that the annointed one was supposed to be one who led the jewish people to victory (generally militarily.)
     "A lot of prophecy speaks in the present or past tense like that."
     Which leads me to believe that these are non-prophecies re-interpreted as prophecies.
     The writings of "Luke" (all the gospel writers were anonymous) are not similar to a sheep before her shearers. A silent sheep is submissive. A bleating one would be rebellious. In the story penned by "Luke," the silence was rebellious.
     According to the story, Herod could have freed Jesus (charged with being a rebel.) Presumably, he could have executed him on the spot. He didn't do that either. And the excursion appears in no other gospels. My impression is that it is fictitious and that christian tried to twist it into a fulfilled prophecy.

Dani' El said...

Yes Jesus fulfilled these prophecies so well that the argument has always been that the gospels were cleverly written to comform to them. But it is not so.
The suffering on the cross, and many more things are accurately described in the prophecies.

Paul made this argument to the Jews.

Act 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
Act 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
Act 3:17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
Act 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

There are many traditions of the rabbis in the talmudd that interpreted the mix of both the suffering servant and triumphant king in the messianic prophecies as being 2 separate persons called the son of Joseph and son of David respectively. Jesus simply declared Himself to be both in 2 advents.

(an excerpt)

Messiah Son of Joseph
Maimonides does a great job in condensing Jewish belief and expectation in the Messiah. The Jewish beliefs and expectations of the Messiah is wide and varied. Through the Talmud, and other writing we see the expectation of two Messiahs. One called Messiah Son of David, and the other Messiah Son of Joseph actually precedes the Messiah son of David and is killed in the battle of Gog and Magog. Messiah Son of David then asks the Lord to resurrect the slain Messiah Son of Joseph. The Babylonian Talmud refers to the relationship between these two Messiah’s.

It was only in the last few centuries that the rabbis started to try and deny these traditions since they pointed to Jesus.

Pvblivs said...


     Take a look at that home page. Don't you think that they are a little bit biased? Perhaps you could find a few historical sources that aren't preaching the end of the world. Essentially, I am looking for a source that doesn't have a motive to say it's true when it is not.

Dani' El said...

Yes but they are quoting the Talmud. My point was there are Jewish traditions that interpret the messianic prophecies as being 2 messiahs, one suffering the other triumphant. Maybe this is new to you but it is well established.

If I can find some time I'll find some other sources but it's out there if you want to look.

This is hotly debated (obviously) between Messianics and the Rabbis so there is a lot out there.

Dani' El said...

This is from a christian source but again they reference the Talmud, Midrash, etc.
The Babylonian Talmud was written before Christ.


For historic indicators that Jews will once again chose a false Messiah, and will willingly follow false teachers is this very germane example from the middle ages. Prior to the early middle ages rabbis always concurred that the "suffering servant" passage of Isaiah 53 was a prediction of the Messiah. Anyone who has ever read this knows immediately it speaks of Jesus suffering on the cross. By the 11th century, pressure from those who applied this prophecy to Jesus was so great that the great, beloved Jewish scholar Rabbi Shlomo Yitzhak (known as Rashi), reinterpreted this chapter and said it referred to the nation of Israel and not the Messiah. Jewish scholars continue to maintain this false teaching today.

Not all rabbis accepted this “new” view. Rabbi Mosheh Kohen ben Crispin of Cordova & Toledo (14th century), answered Rashi by saying: "The interpretation of Rashi distorts the passage from its natural meaning,” and “it was given of God as a description of the Messiah. Rabbi Naphtali ben Asher Alltschuler (1500 A.D.) said; “I will proceed to explain these verses of our own Messiah, may he come soon, I am surprised that Rashi and Kimchi have not with the Targums applied it to Messiah likewise.”

Though the language clearly speaks of one dying for our sins as a korban, Rashi's view which differed with the ancient Jewish sages, and Jewish Scripture itself caught on and prevails in Judaism today -- perhaps because it seemed to provide some answer to refute the believer's claims in Yeshua/Jesus. Going way back to the Babylonian Talmud, we find ancient sages disagreeing with Rabbi Rashi, as the Babylonian Talmud speaks of Isaiah 53 as a suffering/stricken messiah:

The Messiah -- what is his name? . . . The Rabbis say, the leprous one; those of the house of Rabbi say, the sick one, as it is said, "Surely he hath borne our sicknesses." (Sanhedrin 98b)

Prior to Rashi, the ancient commentators with one accord noted that the context clearly speaks of God's Anointed One, the Messiah. The Aramaic translation of this chapter, ascribed to Rabbi Jonathan ben Uzziel, a disciple of Hillel who lived early in the second century A.D:

Behold my servant Messiah shall prosper; he shall be high, and increase, and be exceeding strong: as the house of Israel looked to him through many days, because their countenance was darkened among the peoples, and their complexion beyond the sons of men. (Targum Jonathan on Isaiah 53, ad locum)

The words of Isaiah 53 are among clearest in all the Bible. Also, it is no accident that it lays in the center of the Bible. The passage tells of an outstanding Servant of the Lord whose visage is marred and is afflicted and stricken. This "Suffering Servant" has not deserved any pain or wounds, but was wounded through our transgressions, bruised through our iniquities, and with his wounds we are healed. The text presents the suffering Servant of the Lord who dies as a korban, or a recompense for guilt. He is then buried with the rich and wicked, but is gloriously resurrected to life. God permits His affliction, and this exalted Servant endures this agonizing and painful suffering in order to remove the sins of many.

All of the ancient Jewish writings (Mishnah, Gemara, Talmud, Midrashin) all regard this portion of scripture as relating to the Messiah. The Talmud (Sanhedrin 98) teaches that Isaiah 53 refers to Messiah. The Targum of Jonathan begins it with the words Ha yatslakh avdee Mashikha, "Behold my servant the Messiah shall prosper"...