Think about it. They aren't really trying to convince anybody. Dan is spouting the nonsense of "repentence comes before knowledge." Norman is perpetually antagonistic, and in denial of reality. Currently, he is claiming that Hitler was not a christian based on an apologetic site that is manufacturing quotes. It's a little like the "deathbed conversions" of atheists only in reverse. A christian says that someone said something that no one can verify. But, understandably, christians don't want Hitler among their ranks.
Now, some people might simply think that fundamentalists are stupid or crazy. I do not. Oh, I'm sure that those elements exist. But I think there is something more sinister at play. Christians want to be able to tell people "you had your chance." If they presented their message in any plausible manner, they might win converts. And they do not want that. That would take away from the "ha, ha, you missed out" factor. They want outsiders to dismiss them. Now, I still think that they are wrong. But I also think that any god that would support this kind of behavior is evil.
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I agree that would be evil. Its like yelling lightly into a room, that is on fire, asking if anyone in there needs help.
This equivocation of yours is silly though. That is not what is going on here at all, and you know it fully.
Two quotes for you:
"A great many of those who debunk traditional values have in the background values of their own which they believe to be immune from the debunking process." ~C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man (1944)
"If sinners be damned, at least let them leap to Hell over our bodies. If they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees. Let no one go there unwarned and unprayed for." ~C.H. Spurgeon
Word Verify: awsermi, as in Awesome Sermon
I more liken what you do to donning a jester's outfit, getting on stage and saying "oh, yes, the theater is really on fire." That would be followed by eye rolling and comedic dance. You're making the claim, all right. But you are making it look like a big joke.
More like dawning a fire suite and a Captains hat in hopes you trust the uniform as some authority. Ultimately I will get bruised, but hopefully you will get out anyway. You can arrest me for impersonating an officer later.
I just do not view it as a joke. Its frustrating at times. Sure I poke and challenge you to get you thinking, but the goal is always the same. To know you for all of eternity. Bliss
Of course it's a joke. When you say things like "repentance comes before knowledge" you invite everyone to dismiss anything you say on the matter. We all know (and you do too) that repentance cannot come before knowledge. If you really want to reach people (which I rather doubt) drop that lie, along with Presuppositional Baloney. You seem to have homed in on what is most likely to convince people that you have nothing of merit. And when people point out that to you, you just lock on to the useless tactic.
>>We all know (and you do too) that repentance cannot come before knowledge.
And, pray tell, how do you KNOW this or anything?
>>If you really want to reach people (which I rather doubt) drop that lie, along with Presuppositional Baloney.
Let me guess you want me to put God on the docket, give you evidence, so you ca place Him on trial? Forget it.
>>You seem to have homed in on what is most likely to convince people that you have nothing of merit.
Only if you think truth does not have merit.
Besides did you even read my "About Me" page? "I am a Homeschooling Dad seeking to decrease while Christ increases, and ultimately show people that I have nothing more to say in the realm of spiritual things other than what Jesus has already provided, who is God's Word."
I agree with you.
>>And when people point out that to you, you just lock on to the useless tactic.
How do you know this? :7)
"And, pray tell, how do you KNOW this or anything?"
Observation through my senses. And your resort to Presuppositional Baloney just tells me that you think the bible to be a lie.
"Let me guess[.] [Y]ou want me to put [g]od on the docket, give you evidence, so you [can] place [h]im on trial? Forget it."
If it makes you feel any better, it is you and your claim that are on trial. And, if you really want to convert people, then, yes, you have to be prepared to give evidence. On the other hand, if I am correct and you are just looking for the "ha ha, you missed out" factor, just keep doing what you're doing. You guarantee that you will win no converts.
"Only if you think truth does not have merit."
Oh, I think truth has merit. But I have no reason to believe you have truth.
"'And when people point out that to you, you just lock on to the useless tactic.'
"How do you know this?"
Because I have watched you give demonstrations like this one many times before.
Incidentally, if you make yourself decrease to nothingness, it will be in no way you that "inherits eternal bliss." What do you suppose becomes of the old you?
>>And, if you really want to convert people, then, yes, you have to be prepared to give evidence.
Oh believe me if I could convince people I would lose quite a bit of sleep speaking to as many as I could. But, as you fully well know, I am not here to convince people. I am merely commanded to speak the truth, 'convincing' is out of my hands.
You know this.
Of course, according to your worldview, there cannot be evidence for God. Right? How can there be evidence for something that does not even exist? I feel your pain though. I wish I could do something about that. I asked many time to grant us that one wish, on your behalf. I will remain faithful that He will answer that prayer to change that heart of stone of yours into a heart of flesh. Ezekiel 36:26
A true miracle, just like he did for me.
“For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.” Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?” (1 Corinthians 1: 18-20)
“The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:14)
This is why, no matter if you believe it or not, repentance comes BEFORE knowledge of truth, not after: 2 Timothy 2:24-26
I can personally attest to that. I repented before knowing God. As a 21 year old, just out of the military Atheist, I was handed this tract by a wonderful couple that I met while being a life guard. They left such a positive impression on me that I remember thinking that she is the kind of woman that I would want to marry someday. After reading that tract, I sincerely said to Christ "If you are real, please show me." "If all this is true, then I am in real trouble, and I am sorry. Help me" and the like.
Flash ahead to today and I did find a woman like that one. Patty is very kind and loving. She is 5 hours older the I am, I married her on her birthday, and today on this day we are married 11 years. Plus, I KNOW God. I cannot deny that. I hope the most for you from God.
"But, as you fully well know, I am not here to convince people."
So you are looking for the "ha, ha, you missed out" factor. I'm glad we cleared that up.
"Of course, according to your worldview, there cannot be evidence for God. Right?"
Wrong. My worldview is not dependent on your or any other god not existing. If evidence is presented, then I will examine it.
"I feel your pain though. I wish I could do something about that."
Well, you could stop lying. That would be a start.
" For it is written: 'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.'"
Rather strange for a being who supposedly "does not wish that any should perish." This fits two main possibilities, the "ha, ha, you missed out" and the "one big hoax." The hoax, of course, does not present evidence because there is none; but it tells the followers that it is "to confound the wise."
"This is why, no matter if you believe it or not, repentance comes BEFORE knowledge of truth, not after"
While I agree that my belief does not affect the matter, it cannot happen that repentance comes before knowledge. Any claimed repentance prior to the relevant knowledge is a mere show for pretense. It is insincere. Knowledge must come first.
" As a 21 year old, just out of the military Atheist,"
Stop. It seems every fundamentalist christian has a "when I was an atheist" story. There are too many fundamentalist christians and too few atheists for them to be genuine. I am sure that, when your children grow up, they will have their own "when I was an atheist" stories; and they will all be false. You were never an atheist. You may have been a non-fundamentalist christian.
"After reading that tract, I sincerely said to Christ"
Again, not possible under the terms of the story you relate. An atheist, who doesn't believe there is any "christ" there (it's not a name, by the way) would only be acting a part if he claimed to be saying anything to some christ.
>>There are too many fundamentalist [C]hristians [it's a name, by the way] and too few atheists for them to be genuine.
Dude, there are thousands of Christians that use(d?) to be Atheists. Are you claiming that number to be zero? Really?
Look at your own reasoning. There are so many Christians that claimed to be Atheists, therefore the fact there are few Atheists makes that claim false.
That is like saying to a group of adults, that claim they used to be children, that they were never children because of the number of adults.
You're silly.
I was an Atheist because I believed my Dad and his whole worldview. I had friends that were Atheists also. I remember teasing Christians in the military that would no go drinking with us. "OK, stay here and read your Bible then" They were too uptight for my liking. I really believed we came from ape ancestry from the teachings of school. I was raised in an Atheists home.
I will grant you the possibility there may have been a predestination for me to become a Christian, in spite of my surroundings. In reflection that is a huge possibility. Like Christians in Muslim countries. I remember thinking at a young age that my Dad must be wrong about lying for gain is the right and "business" way.
But I lived, breathed, and fought as an Atheist.
At that age, 21-23, I did get reflective I will admit. I was questioning MANY things at that point towards the end of my Atheism. That couple sure made a large impression on me. Life changing impression. I remember yelling at some teenagers to get out of my office as I was trying to life guard. I cussed at them, like a Sailor. After that, not thinking anything of it, I caught the man's eyes and the look of disappointment, and concern, in his eyes shook my soul for some reason. It steadied my reasoning to be more receptive to possibilities of Jesus maybe. I am not clear exactly.
All I know is that night after "speaking" to Jesus, I went out and got high with my brother. I didn't think anything of it and I moved on with my life. Then some very strange things, that I wish not to detail right now about, happened that made me question everything. That is when I picked up the Bible, for the first time in my life, to read about evil. I remember getting all frustrated that I could not find the "section" on it and decided to read it, once and for all, cover to cover. It took me three weeks. I was out of a job at the time. I was 23, and I was never the same again. I ran to the closest church to get baptized. I waited until the service was over, pulled the pastor to the side and asked what I needed to do to be baptized? They stayed after and set it all up for me, with just a few people still there.I thought or was thinking that was what it took to be saved. Then it took 15 more years to finally, truly, be saved. I cannot lie about it. I cannot fake it. Its the truth.
You might be right. I was never an Atheist. I was just raised one. I was groomed as one. I associated with ONLY Atheists. I believed everything Atheists believe. I thought I was an Atheist.
I can say I will never be one, again.
"Dude, there are thousands of [c]hristians that use(d?) to be Atheists."
It's like we had thousands of children that were atheist, and now we have millions of adult fundamentalist christians (and a few thousand adult atheists) who claim to come from that number. The demographics don't work.
"Are you claiming that number to be zero?"
I'm claiming that number to be smaller than the number of christians who lose their faith. What did you say that number was?
Incidentally, I am aware of the fact that there are some people who are named "Christian." But, outside of that use, "christian" is not a name. It can be either a common noun or an adjective.
"I remember teasing christians in the military that would [not] go drinking with us."
Given the demographics, I find that highly unlikely. More than sixty-eight percent of military personnel belong to some denomination of christianity. A mere 1/2 of one percent are atheists. An atheist teasing christians in the military would, in essence, be asking for a beat-down. And I am sure there are many that would oblige.
>>An atheist teasing christians in the military would, in essence, be asking for a beat-down. And I am sure there are many that would oblige.
You, of all people, should know me enough that I am a lead, follow, or get out of the way kind of guy. Either step up, or step aside. I do remember 9 guys trying to hold me down to give me a pink belly because of my big mouth, but they were NOT able to give me even one slap. I went all Tasmanian on them. I did tease a bit and always thought of the "religious" people to be a different crowd then the ones that I would want to hang with. I could not do my "Fornication Fridays" with that type of crowd after all.
I see clearly now that you doubt everything and everyone, to a fault maybe, and that may be good in some situations. But, take it from me, it makes a very lonely life.
Take a cat as an example, love sometimes is exposing your tender belly in trust. Sometimes you have to pull out your claws, but most of the time you find someone that is willing to help you purr. Thanks for this conversation though. The reflecting was healthy for me personally. Kitty likes, meooow! lol
Sorry, just being a dork again. In a good mood for some reason. Take care
"I do remember 9 guys trying to hold me down to give me a pink belly because of my big mouth, but they were NOT able to give me even one slap."
Dan is obviously some sort of superman, and can fight of 9 guys at once. How can you doubt his claims? ;)
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